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	<title>Comments on: Measuring Salinity from Space</title>
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	<link>http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/2012/09/11/measuring-salinity-from-space/?src=fromthefield-rss</link>
	<description>NASA scientists are in the field and write home to tell about it.</description>
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		<title>By: ldavidcooke</title>
		<link>http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/2012/09/11/measuring-salinity-from-space/comment-page-1/#comment-29026</link>
		<dc:creator>ldavidcooke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2012 00:34:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/?p=4432#comment-29026</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey Dr. Le Vine,

Thank you for your response, I was considering a reapplication of the Colorado State, atmospheric sodium lidar.  (A reference here:  http://lamar.colostate.edu/~lidar )  As this device is used as a ground based sensing device for Mesopheric atmospheric activity at 55 – 65 km elevation, it might be difficult. 

With the loss of the L band yellow slot below this altitude may suggest it would simply require a slight detuning or retuning for a Na/Cl emission band.  I only mention it in passing as it may offer a separate; but, valuable alternative tool for the future of marine research.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Dr. Le Vine,</p>
<p>Thank you for your response, I was considering a reapplication of the Colorado State, atmospheric sodium lidar.  (A reference here:  <a href="http://lamar.colostate.edu/~lidar" rel="nofollow">http://lamar.colostate.edu/~lidar</a> )  As this device is used as a ground based sensing device for Mesopheric atmospheric activity at 55 – 65 km elevation, it might be difficult. </p>
<p>With the loss of the L band yellow slot below this altitude may suggest it would simply require a slight detuning or retuning for a Na/Cl emission band.  I only mention it in passing as it may offer a separate; but, valuable alternative tool for the future of marine research.</p>
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		<title>By: ldavidcooke</title>
		<link>http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/2012/09/11/measuring-salinity-from-space/comment-page-1/#comment-29025</link>
		<dc:creator>ldavidcooke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2012 00:04:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/?p=4432#comment-29025</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey Dr. Lindstrom,

My apologies for not being clear, the tought I was trying to share was as the incoming UV, which I have read penetrates to over 40M, is absorbed, with the energy converted to IR by  the increase in water molecule vibration which I suspect results in heating of the water or via increased collisions the emission of IR energy.  

The question then returns to the basic physics if there is an increase in carbon molecules, ie: carbonic acid or calcium carbonate, near the surface, would these molecules tend to trap incoming solar energy in the upper 10-30 meters of the ocean and shade the deeper water?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Dr. Lindstrom,</p>
<p>My apologies for not being clear, the tought I was trying to share was as the incoming UV, which I have read penetrates to over 40M, is absorbed, with the energy converted to IR by  the increase in water molecule vibration which I suspect results in heating of the water or via increased collisions the emission of IR energy.  </p>
<p>The question then returns to the basic physics if there is an increase in carbon molecules, ie: carbonic acid or calcium carbonate, near the surface, would these molecules tend to trap incoming solar energy in the upper 10-30 meters of the ocean and shade the deeper water?</p>
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		<title>By: David Le Vine</title>
		<link>http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/2012/09/11/measuring-salinity-from-space/comment-page-1/#comment-29007</link>
		<dc:creator>David Le Vine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2012 17:34:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/?p=4432#comment-29007</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Reply to the question of why microwave and not Lidar:  The microwave response to salinity has a long history of research and validation dating back to the 1970’s.  There were even reports of changes associated with salinity in the signal from the L-band radiometer on SkyLab.  See Section D in Proc IEEE Vol 98 (5) pp 688 for a short history.  Salinity changes the conductivity of water and the change in conductivity changes the thermal emission enough at L-band to be measured with modern instruments from space.  The change in conductivity is also the basis for measuring salinity in situ.  There may be a correlation between ocean color and salinity, but otherwise, I am not aware of passive optical or Lidar remote sensing of salinity.  It would be nice, if possible, because the challenge now is to obtain the spatial resolution needed to address issues closer to the coast.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reply to the question of why microwave and not Lidar:  The microwave response to salinity has a long history of research and validation dating back to the 1970’s.  There were even reports of changes associated with salinity in the signal from the L-band radiometer on SkyLab.  See Section D in Proc IEEE Vol 98 (5) pp 688 for a short history.  Salinity changes the conductivity of water and the change in conductivity changes the thermal emission enough at L-band to be measured with modern instruments from space.  The change in conductivity is also the basis for measuring salinity in situ.  There may be a correlation between ocean color and salinity, but otherwise, I am not aware of passive optical or Lidar remote sensing of salinity.  It would be nice, if possible, because the challenge now is to obtain the spatial resolution needed to address issues closer to the coast.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Lindstrom</title>
		<link>http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/2012/09/11/measuring-salinity-from-space/comment-page-1/#comment-29005</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Lindstrom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2012 11:51:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/?p=4432#comment-29005</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am not too sure if I understand this question.  Let me just try some stating some facts.

CO2 in water does not have greenhouse blanket properties as in the atmosphere.  infrared (thermal) radiation that is &quot;trapped&quot; by CO2 in atmosphere does not penetrate very far in seawater and is more related to the properties of water than small changes in water chemistry (like the amount of trace gases).  Low salinity at the surface (as might be caused by rainfall or land runoff) can cause stratification leading to enhanced warming at the surface.  Surface water warmed by the sun during the day might not be mixed down due to the buoyancy imparted by the low salinity.

The partial pressure of CO2 in seawater is related to both the temperature and salinity of the seawater, so chemists are interested in precise maps of surface salinity in order to better understand the fluxes of CO2 between the ocean and atmosphere.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not too sure if I understand this question.  Let me just try some stating some facts.</p>
<p>CO2 in water does not have greenhouse blanket properties as in the atmosphere.  infrared (thermal) radiation that is &#8220;trapped&#8221; by CO2 in atmosphere does not penetrate very far in seawater and is more related to the properties of water than small changes in water chemistry (like the amount of trace gases).  Low salinity at the surface (as might be caused by rainfall or land runoff) can cause stratification leading to enhanced warming at the surface.  Surface water warmed by the sun during the day might not be mixed down due to the buoyancy imparted by the low salinity.</p>
<p>The partial pressure of CO2 in seawater is related to both the temperature and salinity of the seawater, so chemists are interested in precise maps of surface salinity in order to better understand the fluxes of CO2 between the ocean and atmosphere.</p>
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		<title>By: ldavid cooke</title>
		<link>http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/2012/09/11/measuring-salinity-from-space/comment-page-1/#comment-29004</link>
		<dc:creator>ldavid cooke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2012 21:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/?p=4432#comment-29004</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey Dr. Londstrom,

As you may have surmised, wrt the question about dissolved CO2, is the relationship to ocean surface temperatures.  I&#039;m curious if it is possible that the CO2 could &quot;trap&quot; normal insolation near the surface resulting in spikes of salinity, similar to long term synoptic weather conditions of clear skies and &quot;dry&quot; high pressure centers.

It would be very useful to know if there could be a correlation to the atmospheric &quot;thermal blanket&quot; theory.  Along the lines of a hypothesis of where the CO2 creates a strong inversion layer both concentrating insolation near the surface and sheilding the water column below, hence, increasing SSTs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Dr. Londstrom,</p>
<p>As you may have surmised, wrt the question about dissolved CO2, is the relationship to ocean surface temperatures.  I&#8217;m curious if it is possible that the CO2 could &#8220;trap&#8221; normal insolation near the surface resulting in spikes of salinity, similar to long term synoptic weather conditions of clear skies and &#8220;dry&#8221; high pressure centers.</p>
<p>It would be very useful to know if there could be a correlation to the atmospheric &#8220;thermal blanket&#8221; theory.  Along the lines of a hypothesis of where the CO2 creates a strong inversion layer both concentrating insolation near the surface and sheilding the water column below, hence, increasing SSTs.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Lindstrom</title>
		<link>http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/2012/09/11/measuring-salinity-from-space/comment-page-1/#comment-29001</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Lindstrom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2012 15:37:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/?p=4432#comment-29001</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sandy, Thanks for the added clarification.  Aquarius is focused on measuring sea surface salinity.  I realize that in non-oceanographic circles &quot;salinity&quot; is a big subject related to ground water and surface water on land.  We are not examining that issue.  Trying to get to salinity of ground water as a &quot;mass&quot; problem through GRACE seems darn near impossible (its such a small signal in the overall mass signal and its variation).  Maybe it will be possible one day, but seems like it more directly accessible through in situ measurements.
Eric]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sandy, Thanks for the added clarification.  Aquarius is focused on measuring sea surface salinity.  I realize that in non-oceanographic circles &#8220;salinity&#8221; is a big subject related to ground water and surface water on land.  We are not examining that issue.  Trying to get to salinity of ground water as a &#8220;mass&#8221; problem through GRACE seems darn near impossible (its such a small signal in the overall mass signal and its variation).  Maybe it will be possible one day, but seems like it more directly accessible through in situ measurements.<br />
Eric</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Lindstrom</title>
		<link>http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/2012/09/11/measuring-salinity-from-space/comment-page-1/#comment-29000</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Lindstrom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2012 15:29:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/?p=4432#comment-29000</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We are not delving into the chemistry and biology of the ocean on this voyage.  We have the Knorr labs full with people and various gear to focus on ocean salinity variability.
EJL]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are not delving into the chemistry and biology of the ocean on this voyage.  We have the Knorr labs full with people and various gear to focus on ocean salinity variability.<br />
EJL</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Eric Lindstrom</title>
		<link>http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/2012/09/11/measuring-salinity-from-space/comment-page-1/#comment-28999</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Lindstrom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2012 15:22:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/?p=4432#comment-28999</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is a good presentation on this question at the Aquarius mission web site.  

Check out: http://aquarius.nasa.gov/pdfs/LeVine_3Jun11b.pdf

David Levine is better trained than this sea-going oceanographer to answer the hypothetical question on other potential choices for remote sensing of ocean salinity.

Eric]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a good presentation on this question at the Aquarius mission web site.  </p>
<p>Check out: <a href="http://aquarius.nasa.gov/pdfs/LeVine_3Jun11b.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://aquarius.nasa.gov/pdfs/LeVine_3Jun11b.pdf</a></p>
<p>David Levine is better trained than this sea-going oceanographer to answer the hypothetical question on other potential choices for remote sensing of ocean salinity.</p>
<p>Eric</p>
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		<title>By: Sandy</title>
		<link>http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/2012/09/11/measuring-salinity-from-space/comment-page-1/#comment-28998</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2012 14:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/?p=4432#comment-28998</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Per the discussion on using gravity sensors to measure salinity, Aquarius measures salinity of sea surface only, correct? If using a gravity sensor to measure salinity (the sensor would have to be incredibly sensitive), it would be measuring gravity of the total water column at a particular location. To calculate salinity at a location, percentage of other dissolved solids and particulate matter would need to be known, as well as the total mass below the water (crust to core) and depth of water column. Unfortunately detailed information on those other variables a priori is just not available to solve the equation...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Per the discussion on using gravity sensors to measure salinity, Aquarius measures salinity of sea surface only, correct? If using a gravity sensor to measure salinity (the sensor would have to be incredibly sensitive), it would be measuring gravity of the total water column at a particular location. To calculate salinity at a location, percentage of other dissolved solids and particulate matter would need to be known, as well as the total mass below the water (crust to core) and depth of water column. Unfortunately detailed information on those other variables a priori is just not available to solve the equation&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: ldavidcooke</title>
		<link>http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/2012/09/11/measuring-salinity-from-space/comment-page-1/#comment-28997</link>
		<dc:creator>ldavidcooke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2012 13:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/?p=4432#comment-28997</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey Dr. Lindstrom,

I am curious as to why they chose to apply microwave as opposed to Lidar, is it due to the optical depth issue at sodium resonate frequency?  If so could a harmonic frequency not work?  Oh, and while you are on campaign, are you also sampling for dissolved carbonic acid?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Dr. Lindstrom,</p>
<p>I am curious as to why they chose to apply microwave as opposed to Lidar, is it due to the optical depth issue at sodium resonate frequency?  If so could a harmonic frequency not work?  Oh, and while you are on campaign, are you also sampling for dissolved carbonic acid?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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